Curse

egads · May 30, 2005, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Yikes. I haven't been following these sort of threads too closely. I see that I've been missing a lot.

Anyway, I'm in the interesting position of having played PvE almost exclusively despite being very interested in the competitive, PvP side of the game thanks to problems on my end. I think that the game in its current state definitely needs changing in some way to so that players don't have to spend hundreds of hours unlocking skills, runes and upgrades. However, I do not like the idea of having a separate UAS ladder. I do not want to play in a "show off how much you've grinded!" ladder, especially not if the main competition is going on elsewhere. I also don't want to just disgard my roleplaying character for a UAS PvP character, as I think that is unnecessary when other solutions can be found. Frankly, if a UAS button was implemented, I would rather they were thrown into the current PvP with everyone able to enter.

The Virago's idea about PvP skill acquisition sounds interesting. I also liked an idea I heard about being able to buy an expensive item from an end game NPC that unlocks runes and upgrade parts it is applied to (as put forward in this post). I'd much prefer something like that rather than splitting the community down the middle.

NiknudStunod · May 30, 2005, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

He means to say WoW PVP requires alot more grind. And it does. But WoW isn't GW, it doesn't have high expectations by it's fanbase, because it was never advertised as such.

Its debateable which is the worst grind. WoW grind may of been longer but it wasn't as boring. It is the endgame of WoW that is lacking not the grind. Guild wars has the opposite problem where the begining game is one long bore but the endgame is exciting.

Xellos · May 30, 2005, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

Its debateable which is the worst grind. WoW grind may of been longer but it wasn't as boring. It is the endgame of WoW that is lacking not the grind. Guild wars has the opposite problem where the begining game is one long bore but the endgame is exciting.

Only because WoW lasts longer therefore it is harder to realize the repetitiveness

The Virago · May 30, 2005, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

Don't take this personally, but this is exactly the kind of statement that makes people not want to even read the rest of your post. You basically just said "my way or the high way nah nah nah". Why would people take you seriously? You've already concluded that you are 100% for your side and that even if hell froze over you would still call hell the hottest place there is.

The only people who would not bother to read my post are the people who are already doing precisely what you're trying to accuse me of here... i.e., "already concluded they are 100% for their side only, etc."

What you've done here is called projection.

Rather than try and tell me what I am thinking, perhaps you could just read what I wrote. It really is much more telling than reading into what I wrote, promise.

Then, when you manage that, perhaps you'd care to tell me why it is that PvP players should not have to earn their skills just like the PvE players do.

I'll be waiting.

edit: Actually, I think letting anyone engaged in PvP potentially unlock a skill would be a great way to cross-pollenate between PvE and PvP. Win-win.... fresh meat for the PvPers, possible skills for PvEers (regardless of who has favor at the moment, added incentive to give PvP a whirl/chance) and something to smooth over the increasingly jagged schism between the PvP and PvE crowd.

Lazarous · May 30, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Then, when you manage that, perhaps you'd care to tell me why it is that PvP players should not have to earn their skills just like the PvE players do.

Sure. Your post is gibberish that has been trotted out upteen times by pve fanboys and shot down over and over again.

PvP players take no pride in getting skills. It gives them no sense of accomplishment that they've had to spend 200 hours to unlock all the skills they needed. All it does is make them angry and not like the game. Thats the entire point of splitting the game in 2, since the two playerbases have totally different fun requirements. Repeating: you leave the game as is for the pve diehards who like repeating the missions until their eyes bleed, and you have seperate districts for a pvp UAS ladder and arenas.

The two possibly valid arguments i've heard in this thread against a UAS ladder are: 1.The game is so far from perfect that having this obvious crap mechanic is taking the brunt of the hatred and giving time for a.net to balance the pvp better. 2.Everyone would stop playing pve if it wasn't forced on them.

2. I just find amusing. This argument is tantamount to saying 'yes, pve sucks'. If no one would play it given the choice between pvp and pve, then why in gods name do you think it a good thing that we're forced to do it? This is the same thing as saying you need to shovel a whole stinking pile of crap for a long time to get to a diamond at the very bottom. If you could get to the diamond without the crap, would anyone shovel it?

1. Is somewhat more compelling. It however requires a.net to have come up with this wonderful little plan to divert attention from their 'lacking' pvp system. This seems to basically mean adding more pvp functionality in terms of new arenas, rulesets and whatnot; balance in the game is damned good, there are few if any overpowered skills and most people are talking about a few tweaks to numerical values to achieve balance rather than wholesale nerfing, its an accomplishment a.net should be proud of.

My response to this is that a.net is hemmoraging players with this plan that would otherwise just suspend playing till new content was available. I know i've personally stopped playing games that had fairly obvious flaws only to pick them up later after a patch had fixed the most glaring problems, and since guild wars isn't p2p adding this stupid grind requirement is wholly unnecessary. Even if a.net 'fixes' pvp and adds more content, tweaks the balance, they'll still have this ridiculous time hump you have to pass before you can compete evenly, and that is whats going to drive and keep away a gigantic portion of the pvp crowd.

The Virago · May 30, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Sure. Your post is gibberish that has been trotted out upteen times by pve fanboys and shot down over and over again.

Sorry, didn't read past this. Anyone willing to use the term 'pve fanboi' oviously hasn't progressed to a point where discussion is feasible.

Please try again... or not. No matter here.

Lazarous · May 30, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Sorry, didn't read past this. Anyone willing to use the term 'pve fanboi' oviously hasn't progressed to a point where discussion is feasible.

Quote:

The only people who would not bother to read my post are the people who are already doing precisely what you're trying to accuse me of here... i.e., "already concluded they are 100% for their side only, etc."

What you've done here is called projection.

you sir have just invalidated whatever points you possibly had.

Wish there was an ignore function in this forum

edit: Sweet glory, there is. User CP->Buddy/ignore lists

MindBullets · May 30, 2005, 03:56 PM // 15:56

As I've thought more and more about this topic I've come to a conclusion.
(Hey, I'm at work on Memorial Day, what more do I have to do with my time?)
The problem is in your word choice in the Thread Topic:

For PvEers: Why are you against an UAS ladder that does not affect you?

For starters, why do we need to make a distinction between PvE and PvP for this thread to work?

It is this seperation that has been the downfall of almost every game I've played. The PvE vs. PvP war-mongering is as old as dust. When the first Non-PvP world, shard, realm or whatever you want to call them was labeled for "Care Bears" it was a dark day for on-line gaming.

Declaring some folks to be Care Bears while the others dubbed themselves Elite has been a bone of contention in almost any game allowing both PvP and PvE worlds. Mind you that PvP is available in most PvE worlds as well.

Please do not automatically assume that everyone that PvE's isn't into PvP, this would be naive and would hurt rather than strengthen the GW's community. That isn't to say that those that choose to PvE rather than PvP shouldn't take into consideration what strictly PvP individuals want out of the game.

I bring up this age old struggle because to truly understand all aspects of GW's you have to understand that many people pursue the PvE aspects of the game to better enhance their PvP prowess.

Unlocking all availabe skills to a designated area like a strictly PvP character that has access to only that area is a worthwhile venture in my mind.
As I stated in my previous post I'd love to be able to test builds out for fun.

I ask only that there isn't this line drawn between people that only want to PvP and those that PvE so that we can PvP with the items and gear we've chosen to pursue.

Mind

Loviatar · May 30, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

one person said they have more than 250 hours on their main character alone not counting a pair of level 20s

assuming he started on the 27th of april that is more than 8 hours a day spent on only his main character without considering the others

all of this time spent so he can get ready to have fun when he is properly equipped with every top item in the game

why cant they play with what they have now for fun and add to it bit by bit over time?

they would be having fun doing their pvp and still building up the character over a few months

glockjs · May 30, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

why cant YOU have a UAS button?

let me answer the question with a question.....why don't YOU play the game and stop the cryin

The Virago · May 30, 2005, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

you sir have just invalidated whatever points you possibly had.

Wish there was an ignore function in this forum

edit: Sweet glory, there is. User CP->Buddy/ignore lists

That would be "Ma'am" and gee, lemme just cry myself to sleep.

Mindbullets, you're absolutely right. It is very amusing that the only two people to complain that someone is holding an opinion which varies from theirs invariably feel the need to try and make things personal.

Small minds talk about people. The rest of us talk about ideas.

DarrenJasper · May 30, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

You're right about the ancient war Mind, it's had battlefields in nearly every MMO... Trust me, I don't like having to break out "carebear", I don't like trotting that out.

But consider this, all of you. If you went to the theme park and wanted to play laser tag, but the man told you that the only way you could get a rifle that shoots straight was to play whack-a-mole, I think you'd be a might ornery. Especially if, while you were doing it, you had to put up with a lot of whack-a-mole fanboys trying to tell you how awesome whack-a-mole is and deriding you for wanting to do anything else.

I don't like being called a "griefer" (that ancient beast of legend, impossibly large) for wanting to engage in a competitive sport, or being told I'm somehow less mature for not wanting to test my skill against redundant and painfully predictable challenges.

The Virago · May 30, 2005, 04:55 PM // 16:55

So far as I can tell, there is a small contingent of folks who really don't care about the game, they're not here to do anything other than PvP. There really isn't "a problem" with this other than that those who subscribe to this perspective have (apparently) missed an important reality:

Skills and upgrades, not PvP, are the reward for playing the game.

As mentioned elsewhere, I think it would be interesting and fun to be able to "Loot" skills (copy, not take away) from others in PvP. But I completely understand the decision to make PvP players earn their skills. It is the only way that winning in the context that exists in this game could matter.

DarrenJasper · May 30, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

So far as I can tell, there is a small contingent of folks who really don't care about the game, they're not here to do anything other than PvP. There really isn't "a problem" with this other than that those who subscribe to this perspective have (apparently) missed an important reality:

Skills and upgrades, not PvP, are the reward for playing the game.

As mentioned elsewhere, I think it would be interesting and fun to be able to "Loot" skills (copy, not take away) from others in PvP. But I completely understand the decision to make PvP players earn their skills. It is the only way that winning in the context that exists in this game could matter.

So far as I can tell, there is a small contingent of folks who really don't care about the game, they're not here to do anything other than PvE. There really isn't "a problem" with this other than those who subscribe to this perspective have (apparently) missed an important reality:

PvP, not skills and upgrades, is the reward for playing the game.

As mentioned elsewhere, I think it would be interesting and fun to be able to "Loot" skills (copy, not take away) from others in PvP. And I completely don't understand the decision to make PvP players earn their skills. Player skill, not time invested in menial tasks, should be the only way that winning in the context that exists in this game matters.

Lazarous · May 30, 2005, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Hahahahahaha. I would've missed out on that gem if you hadn't torn it to shreds jasper, thank you.

The Virago · May 30, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarrenJasper

So far as I can tell, there is a small contingent of folks who really don't care about the game, they're not here to do anything other than PvE. There really isn't "a problem" with this other than those who subscribe to this perspective have (apparently) missed an important reality:

PvP, not skills and upgrades, is the reward for playing the game.

As mentioned elsewhere, I think it would be interesting and fun to be able to "Loot" skills (copy, not take away) from others in PvP. And I completely don't understand the decision to make PvP players earn their skills. Player skill, not time invested in menial tasks, should be the only way that winning in the context that exists in this game matters.

This fails due to the simple reality that it is not the PvE player who is complaining about having to unlock skills and runes.

Thanks. Please drive through.

DarrenJasper · May 30, 2005, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

This fails due to the simple reality that it is not the PvE player who is complaining about having to unlock skills and runes.

Thanks. Please drive through.

Ah yes, so true. You guys have never, ever complained loudly about not having ready access to certain areas only attainable through PvP. You did not set the forums ablaze with your incessant kvetching about how you "needed" a certain mechanism thats only purpose was to allow you to participate in a competition you, by your own admission, wanted no part of.

The thing that separates our skills from your guild halls is that we actually intend to use what we get. And I don't just mean for a tea party.

Xellos · May 30, 2005, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

This fails due to the simple reality that it is not the PvE player who is complaining about having to unlock skills and runes.

Thanks. Please drive through.

Ok then, I want you to tell the PVE community to shut up and pay 100k for each sigil. If PVPers can't complain about PVE, PVE sure as hell can't complain about PVP. 100k Sigils MINIMUM from now on. Superior Vigors+100k standard. Wanna try it? Let's see if you enjoy farming now.

NiknudStunod · May 30, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

This fails due to the simple reality that it is not the PvE player who is complaining about having to unlock skills and runes.

Thanks. Please drive through.

Why would the pve player who enjoys the pve aspect of the game complain? If you want to pve then I say all the power to you. I am a pvper with no interest in partaking in pve. I am not forcing you to do anything you don't want to do why are you trying to force me to.

I don't care if they want to seperate us into 2 different groups so we can only compete with like minded individuals. I just want to be able to play the part of the game I enjoy.

What online games last the longest in terms of years played by there playerbase? RTS games and FPS games. The Best MMORPG starts to lose its playerbase when the next bigger and better game comes out. The best FPS and RTS games continue to have a thriving comunity long after there competition released something better.

Can you imagine having to complete the single player missions over and over again in any genre besides mmorpgs just to compete with other players? Giving players the ability to be casual and still compete is the reason people will be playing games like counter strike, starcraft, and battlefield 1942 long after they are released.

A little comedy on what BF 1942 would be like if it was like GW's =o/

Hopeful pvper say's, "Hey you guys want to help me take down that general down so i can get the rocket launcher?"

Disgruntled pvper say's,"we must of done this mission 100 times, but the boss with the swiss army knife keeps spawning instead!"

The average PvEer say's,"You guys don't need the rocket launcher to compete in pvp just use your pistols on the tank, you will kill it eventually."

The avid grinder say's, "You guys don't deserve the rocket launcher unless you keep doing this mission over and over again like I did."

Louis Ste Colombe · May 30, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

I know a few people who played Magic the Gathering in competitive settings... And since everyone thinks GW ought to be similar to another game, why not comparing it to the one game developpers mentioned as an inspiration?

It seems it was possible to make some good, efficient Magic build with very few different cards, not a lot of money, not spending hours trading them (the equivalent of farming/grinding).
Of course many players did otherwise, were trading for hours, bought lot of cards, and trying to get all of them so as to build all possbile builds if need be.
But if one was sticking to a few focused decks, there were no actual need for that. You could have very efficient builds with a minimal investment in time and money. And no need to farm them all. A good solid build is a good solid build.
Someone playing a "counter" build in Magic would need only so many cards, and many of them were really easy to get by. If you want to play a countering Mesmer, is there really any skill that you need and don't have like right away?
At a tournament, you only got one build, and that's it, all the other unused cards you have are sitting home, useless.

There were one reason for some competitive players to have all cards possible, so as to build all decks; and that's metagaming. Metagamers would design decks to counter most popular decks so as to increase their chance in tourney.
Since popular decks would change quite a lot, metagamers would change their deck quite a lot.
Oddly enough metagamers would face a few problems when dealing with people... who kept their build simple and sticked to basic: just like, well, if you play the anti ele build in that topic , you're metagaming, and you might need some oddball stuff to do that (am pushing it a bit to the extreme with that one

). On the other hand, some basic build will just kick the crap out of it (I mean like... any half not even decent warrior...). Sticking to simple build is part of metagaming in a way

. That's the first good reason that may make metagaming difficult in GW.
Also, I think guessing trend in GW so as to secondguess opposition is going to be a little more difficult than in Magic. That's going to make metagame a little more difficult.

You don't need the skills you think you need. You may already have what you need to build solid good build, and that would be good enough.

Louis,